Ruby Tirsday

[Madeline/Aisling]
I want to know:
1. what the order's going to be;

[Novak/Brennan]
There was some doubt, here?

2. whether its going to be barred to further family members (Caine);

Legally speaking, Brennan is not in favor of barring it to any particular class. Common sense speaking, he thinks elders are a bad idea which lead to both ego problems and could be seen as scking up, big time.

Also, the point is to let Knights-Commander create Knights out of their troops (and, we've broadened it, their associates) and have it come from them directly. Random said so, in words rather close to that.

Elders can already do that, so even making them Knights-Commander wouldn't mean much. (Not that we can do that.) Making them Knights would mean even less.

Youngers are a different story.

[Aisling]
See, what I see is not "a knighthood" but "a knighthood of the Order of the Ruby". Sure, Caine can make knights, but only we six can make Ruby Knights. And we are trying to give ours a different flavor from the run-of-the-mill, right? You guys are talking about making being a Ruby Knight an actual job, yes?

[Mark/Jovian]
But you said also that the Knights of the Ruby are to be their own order, their own powerbase, and an instrument for influencing the future good of Amber that resides with our generation.

What Novak is saying, and I concur, is that the overweening leverage, not to mention ego, of an elder would warp the purpose, direction and methods of what was supposed to be our Order. Try as we might, it will be hugely difficult to keep the Order from unduly reflecting the image of any elder admitted to it. Having gotten a taste of Caine's commnand/managerial style, I can say that Jovian will be particularly pissed over exactly this point if he arrives to find Caine invested in the Order.

Hssh, man; Aisling was dallying with the idea of being idealistic in rewarding service, but is pragmatism is never far from her heart, and it looks very much like the words of Lilly and Brennan have swayed her. Don't make this into a "me and Novak" player thing...

[Brennan]
I don't see the Elders taking particularly well to being made Knights under a Knight-Commander so far their junior in age and other rank. But go ahead, sound him out.

The sucking-up point is a weighty one, as is the avoid-entanglements point below. I feel this is all still brainstorming stage.

[Mark/Jovian]
Trivial, and deeply overshadowed by the above, in my eyes.

That said, if someone is really hyped up to make a Knight out of an Elder... well Brennan would advise against it (for the reasons above) but, hey, it's your Command.

[Mark/Jovian]
No, no, no, absolutely not. That is the wrong attitude to take to this thing, given what we've seen as the purposes of it. We must have some kind of unifying vision, and something that strikes this strong a chord and this strong a difference of opinion must be thrashed out to conclusion. To leave a question with this divisive potential unresolved is to sow the seed of the Order's destruction.

Aisling's definitely in agreement there; thus the summary thread.

3. what the symbolism/dress of it is going to be;

Brennan favors something simple that can be attached to whatever dress is necessary, whatever the hell it happens to be.

4. whether Brennan and Lilly and Marius are going to turn it into three private armies of knights owing them personally, and let the other three of us go whistle.

[Novak/Brennan]
I have no idea what this means.

[Madeline/Aisling]
I don't give a damn who the NPCs we knight are. I hate coming up with big batches of NPCs all at once. I'd much rather let them grow up over time like oyster shells; have it possible, within reason, to invent useful knights on the spot.

[Novak/Brennan]
Having thought ahead, I have about a half a dozen or so (notes are stored on a different computer, though, which is why I haven't said anything about them. That was the thread I was going to start-- the recommendation thread.)

I also intend to add more as and if the situation arises.

Aisling's suggestions for the above situations are (some of these she's already mentioned):
1. wide-ranging doers-of-good (and, obviously, reporters-of-conditions-near-and-far-to-the-commanding-council; and ability-to-apply-small-amounts-of-force-immediately-should-something-happen- in-this-wide-area-they're-ranging-in)

[Novak/Brennan]
I thought that was generally settled already.

[Aisling]
So we've agreed that a Ruby Knight is a full-time doer of good, trained as a warrior, and riding out near and far in small groups?

Aisling would actually lean towards a part-time doer-of-good, so they could still retain their contacts in whatever previous life they had. Seems to allow for more flexibility.

[Mark/Jovian]
And for shadow-dwellers who've proven their worth to have a place in the Order, which I think isn't a bad idea - for strengthening alliances, broading the reach of the eventually reasserted Pax Amberica, and building a cross-shadow intelligence network, to name only the most obvious advantages. (Besides, Jovian has a few dragonriders who he thinks have earned the honor. ;-))

Sure, they would have to be available to and in Amber at least periodically, but that need not be incompatible with a shadow home life, once trade routes are re-established.

Were Jovian actually present to make that point, Brennan would agree-- as far as he can tell, Amber is a city of immigrants. As far as he's concerned, Knighthood would confer some kind of de facto citizenship.

[Brennan]
Exclusive full-time doers-of-good is not flexibility.

Exclusive full-time anything is exactly what Brennan is arguing against-- it's a larger pigeonhole than most, but it's still pigeonholing all the Knights into doing pretty much exactly the same thing.

If it's a bad idea for Brennan to pigeonhole the Knights into a strictly martial force, it seems likewise a bad idea for Aisling to pigeon-hole them into full-time doers-of-good.

(Substitute full-time with part-time; it really doesn't change the argument as Aisling has made it.)

[Madeline/Aisling]
Whoa, hey, she's not arguing for this. This is questioning to see what's in your minds about this, and get you to elucidate. Until I got this post from you, I didn't understand what you were on about.

[Brennan]
Rather than force everyone to be a full-time doer of good and train for martial eventualities, flexibility calls for a supply of those interested in being full-time doers of good, and those interested in the martial end of things. Aisling is interested in one, Brennan in the other.

The way to avoid politicization is to let each select according to his interest.

2. let's give Caine a shot at it

See above.

Brennan counsels against it (and specifically not on a Caine basis-- he'll specifically bring up Bleys, the person he'd most likely have a political motive for flattering as an example of what that might look like, but again, Brennan's opinion is that it's Aisling's Command to do with what she will.

That's the problem, right there, the one you didn't get when I referred to it in question 4 above. Aisling's view is: "We've got an Order. We don't have Marius's command, and Lilly's command, and Brennan's command."

If "command" bothers you, substitute another word. It is still Aisling's rank, her authority, etc. Brennan isn't interested in exercising control over Aisling's decisions.

He's not too interested in the reverse, either.

[Aisling]
"That was the war. This is something greater than the war; an institution. For our individual deeds of valor, Random has made us the governors of this institution. It has one name; it shouldn't have six different flavors. Any knight of this Order should have the same expected of him as any other knight, and they should all owe allegiance to each Knight-Commander equally; the power to create a knight should come from the council.

"Is not the alternative that the three of you who chanced to lead large numbers of Amber folk into combat this last battle would have all the power of any "Order", and there would be naught to attract the other three to you? Random's design would be unraveled before it had even been set down. My personal situation..." she pauses, merriment in her eyes, "would be even more precarious."

[Mark/Jovian]
See above re: unity of vision.

Fair warning: Once Jovian is attending these meetings, he'll let the heavens fall before he lets a meeting break up with a major question left hanging fire. He's very much of the "don't go to bed mad" school of thought.

[Brennan]
Just make sure that unity of vision doesn't become conformity of vision. Brennan probably wouldn't have come up with the idea of a Shadow-spanning order, but he won't think it's a bad one when he hears of it. (Unless I the player learn something to the contrary.) Excessive unity of vision is going to be very difficult to pull off, with six driven and different Knights-Commander, too.

Hence, Brennan's desire for a pretty loose framework-- something loose enough that it can incorporate what Jovian wants to do, even though before Jovian comes home, Brennan can't predict what that might be.

[Brennan]
"For an Order that we hope to avoid politicizing, you seem to want to put a lot of political trappings into the mix."

That a castle staff requires cooks and quartermasters and chambermaids does not mean that multiple Castle staffs are required. That an army requires archers and cavalry and heavy footmen does not mean that three armies are required.

Likewise, that the Order of the Ruby contains men and women of differing skills and functions does not automatically turn it into multiple Orders.

"How could we possibly avoid politicizing this? We're scions of Amber; politics permeate our environment like air." Aisling is honestly baffled.

"You're right. We can't. Ever." Brennan is nothing, if not blunt when agreeing with someone. "But I'm trying to figure out ways to keep it as lightly politicized as possible."

First, Brennan just doesn't believe this is what Random had in mind-- he didn't invest a Council, he invested six Knights-Commander, empowered to create Knights as appropriate.

Second, just as a general cynic on the subject of human nature, and councils are inherently political instruments-- that is their purpose in life, to formalize the disagreements of a ranking clique and crystalize policy from them. Brennan is more or less resigned to the bad dream of eventually having more policy decisions or emergency meetings in the future to make the truly critically important decisions. But he would really like to keep such formalities as infrequent as possible, and the general running of the organization as informal as possible.

He also believes strongly in giving people a head of steam and some authority to run with-- and this includes himself and his fellows.

He would really like to keep formalities associated with councils to their aboslute minimum, and way far away from the low level details like the selection of individual Knights, lest they end up with a bunch of Knights... designed by committee.

Aisling's view is that the selection of individual Knights, far from a low-level detail, is one of the two most critical things about the actual physical order. There's what it does, and there's who does it.

It's still an awful damn lot of council votes, initially and extending into the future. It brings up the possibility of horsetrading votes amazingly early in the life of the council. And Brennan is enough of a cynic on human nature that he includes himself in that estimation.

If someone really wants to listen to his full spiel he'll talk a bit about how councils have a tendency to convert the best intentions into horse-traded commodities.

It might not happen with the first council meeting. It probably won't, because people will be scrupulously avoiding that. Nor the second, nor even the third. But, he would point out, we're immortal. Even one person maintaining that pure, objective integrity for decades or centuries would be astonishing-- six people of diverse interests maintaining it for that long through the inevitable disagreements they must weather together is very honestly beyond Brennan's comprehension.

Which, by the way, may be somewhat why Marius has been pushing for a particular sort of innovator. "Are the Commanders considering legislating the Knights' morality?" he would ask.

Brennan's scheme also makes arms races, or packing the Knights with supporters, by an individual or a faction, functionally impossible.

[Marius]
"Unless..." Nah, the current King wouldn't like that.

[Brennan]
Any single Knight-Commander would have it in their power address that issue by creating Knights of their own. Since the gambit just can't possibly work, no one will be tempted to try it.

[Aisling]
Waitasec. I'm reading that, "it would be impossible for one Knight to pack the Order with his supporters because the others could also pack the Order with their supporters. Arms races are impossible." Where am I going wrong?

[Brennan]
There's no scarcity, thus no race.

[Aisling]
Oh. I was thinking arms race referred to something like escalation, except in this case it would be degradation as each commander brought in less- and less-qualified people in order to keep up with the others. Which seems like a problem a bit of voting could cure.

[Brennan]
Packing a council only makes sense if you can get some numerical advantage, which is hard to do when the response is, "Oh, so Knights X, Y, Z, and W think they're going to build up their cronies? Okay, I can make just as many Knights as those four can."

What's the point?

Races only tend to occur when there's a chance of winning, or getting some advantage. That wouldn't happen here. No advantage. It's like racing on treadmills.

In case it's confusing, Aisling isn't at all suggesting suffrage for the knights. Eeeyick. ;) The only people who would get a say in knight selection, per her proposal, are the commanders.

[Brennan]
That was clear; I wasn't. I meant Knights-Commander.

On the other hand, in a voting situation, it will always be just possible for it to work if a Knight-Commander is persuasive enough, or enough have made a faction. It might not be likely, but it will be possible, and given the lifespans of most potential Knights (natives of Amber live a long time) and the Knights-Commander, that seems... unwise.

Brennan tends toward the long-range in his thoughts, and has found it wise to magnify his cynicism accordingly. Over the long haul, politics happen. No need to introduce them so soon, and so pervasively.

On the subject of knight selection, she's happy to just hear the presentation of each individual's worth, and then have the chance for the council to discuss and possibly nix the guy, which she hardly expects will happen as she does not expect her fellow commanders to come up with grossly unsuited candidates, and has a whole lot of slack in her view of "suited".

Brennan has no opposition to vetting the candidates. He thinks it's a good idea in the abstract for other Knights-Commander to say, "Hey, but did you also know this, or think about that?" Just as with Caine: Did Aisling think about how to keep the Elders' paws off the Order if an Elder is in it?

He's really not keen on formal council approval being necessary.

He also points out that, well, if Aisling is taking the position that she's going to give a whole lot of slack to the issue of membership, then at a functional level, why go through that formality? It seems odd to set up a prerogative one does not intend to use.

[Aisling]
"There is the encouragement of the individual knight, to let him feel it was not a fluke that he was chosen; the appearance of greater infrangibility to outside observers, leading to fewer attempts to turn us against each other. It is not necessary that something to be used for it to be useful."

Brennan groks not the last comment.

[Aisling]
It's like, if you have a large hammer, people are less likely to bump you as you're Christmas shopping.

[Marius]
So group consensus voting? Marius would not like that. "If I have been given the responsibility, I need the authority to make the decision. Do we then discuss what allows someone to have their rank stripped?"

"We can cross that bridge at a later date," is Aisling's view of that situation.

Actually, punishments and stripping of rank is probably, if anything, more important. But Brennan is with Marius on not saddling themselves with this council vote thing.

As to Aisling's personal predicament, Brennan would suggest that she go meet the troops, or select from those among the Nobles where she was involved, or perhaps from those in Conner's emergency hospital, or draw on her years of prior experience in Amber to select precisely those Knights interested in doing that which she wishes to see done.

Brennan has infinite faith in the resourcefulness of his Sister Knight that, left to her devices and on her own authority, she will select good and proper Knights.

On the subject of "what it does", she's not adverse to the prospect of each commander leading projects that interest them; in fact, she's warm to the idea.

[Brennan]
They may be in violent agreement on that, then.

The question is how to keep it one order rather than six. She suggests that to attain this goal they should:
--have the knights loyal to all the commanders equally --

I'm not sure if Brennan is for that or against that until he knows more about what Aisling is thinking, here.

[Aisling]
Ok, what I'm thinking here is no stigma attached to shifting from one emphasis within the Order to another; no quibbling if some crisis arises and a commander other than the one who recommended the knight is giving him orders; no quibbling if the knight gets different, but compatible orders from another commander.

[Brennan]
I think that's something he'll be able to live with. Becuase otherwise, it would very much start to resemble six entirely separate orders.

--allow them a great deal of fluidity in choosing what projects they'd like to be associated with. Moreso than grad students choosing professors; definitely moreso than soldiers and officers.

I think [Brennan]'s going to end up being in favor of this.

3. red sashes? ruby pins? Aisling favors fake Jewels for the commanders, because of the shell-game possibilities next war-- the Jewel is known to be pretty key to Amber, and it can use all the help it can get... A six-pointed red starburst? She'll really pull for that; nice, simple, looks good on a flag.

Brennan is, really, pretty agnostic on this.

But it turns out that he is an amateur jeweler (for Amberite levels of 'amateur') and was thinking of signet rings for the Knights-Commander in addition to the standard decor for the Knights.

4. Aisling will make it known (subtly, and then less so if y'all are missing it) that she believes one of the main reasons Random made this order is to give the youngers a source of power and support to draw on that may be free from plots of their elders --

[Brennan]
That would be a powerful argument against the inclusion of Caine, Bleys, or any other Elder.

-- a source of power that is more in line with their own interests. [Aisling] would really like to build any camaraderie that came from fighting a common battle into something that includes sharing information and learning, and, of course, any secondary power such as that provided by a horde of dashing recruits.

One hopes she is not preaching to Brennan on this point, as Brennan has been arguing for a broad constituency among the Knights to begin with. To recap his arguments, it's clear that his own interest is along the martial end of things, and it looks like Lilly's is, as well. Jovian and Daeon are anyone's guess, and Aisling and Marius seem to be at the other end of the spectrum.

Brennan would be a Damn Fool to try and force things to go exclusively his way. And while in some respect, Brennan is a Damn Fool, that's not the kind of Damn Fool he happens to be. So, while Brennan intends to Knight who he's going to Knight, unless someone comes up with good reasons on individual bases, he does not intend for those Knights that he creates to be an island community unto themselves.

[Tara/Lilly]
Point 1: What are we?

If the castle guard and the Rangers are Amber's military, Lilly would like to see the Knights as something other. Here in the US we all sorts of other organizations (such as the CIA). The Order she seek, in my eyes, to fill in gaps. Are our members full time or part time? I'm not sure it matters. Maybe both depending upon the person. Being named a Knight of the Order of the Ruby is and will be an honorific of sorts. I expect many different types of people with different types of jobs all working for the good of Amber.

I also believe that we six commanders need not agree on everything. There is strength in diversity so long as we respect one another. Now That's not saying I think we should each have a separate force within the Order. Regular meetings should help to prevent that. Also I think that we should agree to a bit of democracy among the leaders. Lilly will concede to the majority. If she is really passionate about something she may argue the issue intensely but she will respect the wishes of her fellow Commanders.

I truly expect the Order to kind of grow into something. We might all have ideas of what it should be or what we wish it to be but time will more then likely shape it to it's own whims. It will be shaped and formed by the Knights we choose, by our separate personalities and by the needs of the kingdom.

Point 2: Caine

Lilly is against this. This is an Order given to the youngers by the King. It almost seems presumptuous to give put an Elder in a position to be subordinate to any one of us; even if it were only an Honorific. The King gave us this to recognize those who were under the command of the scions of Amber, not the scions themselves. Perhaps we can recognize the Elders in some way during the ceremony that is different from making them a member of the Order.

Point 3: Symbolism

So long as it won't interfere with her ability to use a sword, Lilly could care less. This would be a classic case of a girl picking her arguments... <g>

Point 4: Sources of Power

Lilly is more then willing to work with the others. She's young remember and not nearly as cynical as most. Trust, respect and honor are still things she truly believes in. The King asked them to work together on this, so she's going to work with the rest of you like it or not.

With that said.... this really does go straight back to point 1. There might be a point were each of us is handling different aspects of the Order. But I don't think that will make us separate. Lots of organizations of many different aspects within them but their strength lies within the whole. We need to insure good communication between the commanders. We need to trust one another.

I realize the Redheads would think Lilly was insane here. They will be picturing secret meetings between select Commanders, bribes, sabotage, and the like. In this way the daughter of Benedict is a bit naive. Majority rule might just not be possible in Amber. I realize that. Lilly on the other hand is still something of an idealist....

[Marius]
1. what the order's going to be;

Marius, barring his natural skepticism regarding ranks and orders, would like the Ruby Knights to be practical, meaning anything but a fancy dress club. His emphasis is on people who "make a difference." One of the reason he's oriented away from the martial aspects is because he's _hoping_ there's going to be less needed in that arena.

2. whether its going to be barred to further family members

Marius' opinion is that application should not be closed, but carefully considered (for many points already raised and because he's unsure where other lines, such as size and judgment should be drawn.) "Can we as Knight-Commanders commandeer others' Knights?"

3. what the symbolism/dress of it is going to be;

Marius does not claim any artistic ability, although he has some requests. He wants it to be simple, and recognizable. "Yes, that would make it easy to 'forge,' such as it might be, but if we are going to be a symbol to the populace, it needs to be easily reinforced. I would rather not have it relate to any current symbology if possible."

(I was actually thinking the pointed number-of-knight commanders star, but I realized it was fairly comic-book.)

4. whether Brennan and Lilly and Marius are going to turn it into three private armies of knights owing them personally, and let the other three of us go whistle.

From everything Marius has said, I find it hard to believe that Aisling could reasonably consider this a possibility.

If anything, he seems to be feeling like he has two choices: 1) few possibilities, but perhaps he can harvest opportunities later by planting a few seeds of interest, or 2) recognition of good deeds. He doesn't seem to think the latter is a good indication of who should become a Knight in the Knighthood he _wants_ to build. He's willing, however, to let any tradition override what his personal desires are, though, or at least so it seems.

[Aisling]
Oh, and as for symbolism, Aisling was thinking Red, on White, on Gold; that should provide enough colors that it'd be possible for everyone to get something that set off their coloring... (And herein you find that Aisling has a sense of aesthetics, strange though it might be)

[Brennan]
And signets for the KCs?

[Aisling]
Um, sure. I bet a ruby and a setting could very closely appoximate that. Maybe star rubies; that would be nice, if possible.

For symbol, how about something like this? Aisling could sketch that out in the sand of the table of the Blue Room where they're talking; though she'd just present it as a possibility, because symbolism really is the kind of thing that can be firmed up after the big ceremony, in her opinion.

Though we should start considering what we'd like the ceremony to be. Perhaps next meeting?

[Brennan]
"Kneel." <Whang>
"Ow!!"
"You're a Knight. Congratulations. Get up."

[Aisling]
<light laughter> "With maybe a week's more elaboration, that might be something that would stick..."

Oh, and Aisling thinks there should be a Knightly party for the candidates to get to know each other and all of us, before the ceremony and coronation. Mini-ball. We are supposed to be hyping the populace into a frenzy of celebration, yes? Gotta do our part for the good of Amber, and our Order. :)

<sigh> I suppose organizing that probably falls to Aisling, since Marius and Lilly have defined jobs... Does Brennan want to help? Once he gets his army back in town, a large part of his job is over, right? This is the player asking; the character would remember the assignments at the end of the big dinner better.

So we need to get a very rough idea of numbers; does about 40ish knights sound plausible?

And shall we buy a base in town? Aisling leans towards yes, and soon, before inflation goes through the roof. It would be good to have something to have meetings of the whole order, and to put up people of the order who don't have houses, and friends of the order. Perhaps for now we can get a temporary place and a lot, and later we can have something built to suit us.

Next meeting: talking over potential knights, and more party/aesthetic ideas; after the trip to the Pattern; sound good? (Herein is suggested the trip to the Pattern.) Hopefully by then Julian's kids will be back... (Ha, saith the player.)

As for the council-approval-for-knights thing, Aisling doesn't feel that needs to be resolved immediately, and is content to let it sit.